Hey, how are you? Hey Ross, how are you? I’m nice. I’m nice. What an incredible head of- That is nice. Thanks. You look improbable. You look important, one would possibly say. It is a essential a part of the discourse on the web proper. Effectively, we’re going to get into that. For New York Occasions Opinion, I’m Ross Douthat, and that is Attention-grabbing Occasions. There’s been rather a lot speak about a vibe shift in American life since Donald Trump’s return to energy, a shift not simply in American politics, however in American tradition. The place proper wing concepts and influences are instantly driving or shaping the dialog, and a progressive cultural consensus is cracking up. And a technique I’ve been fascinated with that is by way of a phrase that’s historically utilized to the left, and that phrase is counterculture. I believe America has, for the primary time in fashionable reminiscence, a proper wing counterculture. A sort of edgy, reactionary various to the established order. And so I assumed one technique to speak about that counterculture was to ask somebody who I see- we’ll see if he disagrees- as certainly one of its representatives. And that’s you, Jonathan. So, Jonathan Keeperman, welcome to Attention-grabbing Occasions. Ross, it’s nice to be right here. We’ve identified one another for some time on-line, in fact, and I- Purely, purely as digital entities. Effectively, I’m seeing your face throughout from me on the display, and I’m reminded of watching Bloggingheads from 10, possibly even 15 years in the past. So we’ve come a good distance. Oh, that’s- Since Bloggingheads. That’s a deep minimize. In order that exhibits simply how far again your on-line expertise actually goes. Yeah, that’s proper. Days after I had extra hair and it was, me and different junior varsity pundits arguing on the web, however I believe, and you’ll appropriate me about this, I believe the primary time that we truly significantly interacted on the web was after the 2020 election. And I used to be arguing with Lomez, who was/is your Twitter pseudonym. Right. The persona by which you engaged with politics for an extended time frame, about whether or not Joe Biden was legitimately elected. Right. And at that time, you had a twin identification. As Jonathan Keeperman. You had been nonetheless a lecturer, in English, at UC Irvine. Right. That’s proper. And then you definitely had been Lomez, a right-wing Anon is the time period that individuals use. That’s proper. Who wrote pseudonymously on-line. In order that was 2020. After which in 2022, you based a proper wing publishing home known as Passage Press. And that, I’d say, raised your profile fairly dramatically to the purpose the place you had been essential sufficient to have your actual title uncovered by a reporter for The Guardian. Right. in 2024. After which by January of 2025, only recently, you had been notable sufficient to host one of many large inaugural balls, which was known as the Coronation Ball. So, did I miss something? How is that for an account of- These are the highlights. That each one tracks and covers floor properly sufficient for us to get began on this dialog. However I do need to level out that in 2020, after we first had been having this dialogue and debate over the election, you additionally had one thing of a pseudonym. And, I used to be arguing as a lot with Ross Douthat as I used to be Italics Ross. And Italics Ross- you had written a minimum of one column, possibly two, during which you made the case for why Trump may be a superior alternative to steer the nation, regardless of the quantity of chaos that we’d should endure beneath his management. And actually I used to be attempting, if I bear in mind the entire episode accurately to get italics Ross nearer to the floor of the true Ross, the underlying Ross. So all of us are trafficking in sure sorts of multi-identities I suppose. So these had been columns that I wrote, the place I primarily, intentionally cultivated a sort of cut up persona and drew up out of my Jungian unconscious a model of myself that might be pro-Trump, proper. So I used to be by no means for Trump. I used to be a part of “By no means Trump”, no matter which will have been. Approach again up to now. And I retained a primary view that it was a mistake for conservatives to latch themselves to the Trump phenomenon. And so for me, it was like, all proper, Italics Ross was not the true Ross lurking beneath the floor. That wasn’t how I considered it, however I considered it as a set of concepts that actually existed in my consciousness. And that had been actually helpful for understanding the place American tradition was, why individuals supported Trump, and that New York Occasions readers wanted to have interaction with. I’m curious, earlier than we dig into the concepts themselves, was there like a second once you felt a sort of shift within the tradition simply in the previous few years, the place it appeared such as you had been going to exist as your self as a public determine as a substitute of an arguer on-line. Yeah, it’s a superb query when which may have occurred. There actually was a shift. However what’s in all probability occurring right here is simply the identical outdated cycle of leftist extra that we’ve seen periodically over the course of American historical past, a minimum of going again to Second World Warfare and doubtless even earlier than that. There’s a decade of leftism that takes maintain, creates a sort of counterculture. There’s a interval of pushback. And we noticed this, for instance, with the unique neocons within the 70s. We see this cycle then play out once more within the 90s with political correctness, one other mainly 10 12 months cycle. After which all we’re simply seeing is that this identical sample emerge within the mid 2010s. I recognized 2014 as this inflection level. That was the 12 months of Michael Brown and Ferguson and the sort of rise of BLM. It’s additionally this fascinating interval the place the Academy a minimum of, and I believe in all probability that is occurring inside newspapers and in media is popping out of this fascinating transition into the digital age and out of the recession. And there’s new incentives sort of driving the content material. And what occurs there may be {that a} bunch of conservatives and particularly youthful conservatives who’re frozen out of the conservative motion or frozen out of mainstream politics or frozen out of the sorts of professions the place they could have a platform to precise new concepts which may regenerate conservatism, log on and go underground and begin growing a novel and Native type of discourse all our personal. And as that cycle of progressivism simply naturally exhausts itself, which it at all times does, and it takes new type every time. But it surely sort of at all times follows the identical plot. What we’re seeing now could be the emergence of this conservative. Some individuals counter-elite or countercultural power merely rising rather than the place the progressives have vacated. We might give you all kinds of that’s a boringly respectable story. Jonathan and I and I don’t consider it. I imply, I do consider it, however I believe what you’re describing, there’s a description of the trajectory that you simply see. As an example, with my former colleague Bari Weiss. And, and her publication, the free press, which has been tremendously profitable. And has represented of a gathering place for former liberals disillusioned by progressivism, varied eccentric individuals who wouldn’t have known as themselves conservative however have ended up on the proper passage. Press you’re not publishing, a good libertarian critique of the welfare state. You’re publishing, fiction, bizarre tales and Radical Philosophy. You publish the Hardy Boys, the unique Hardy Boys earlier than some multicultural PC cleanups, appropriate. You publish a battle memoir by a Russian normal who fought towards the Bolsheviks. Yeah you publish writing by Robert E Howard, the creator of Conan the Barbarian, HP Lovecraft. However somebody like Curtis yarvin, who’s an instance of an creator you’ve printed. Curtis yarvin thinks that the USA ought to develop into a sort of based mostly monarchy run by some sort of Silicon Valley esque chief government. With a dissolution and revolution of the order of presidency in Washington, DC. Nick land is one other instance of subterranean, far proper intellectuals who wouldn’t have fellowships on the American Enterprise Institute. Who wouldn’t function in mainstream conservative or centrist or middle proper circles. So inform me, inform me about. Inform me about that stuff. So what are we attempting to do. So we’re attempting to revive what’s a real proper wing cultural and ideological. I hate the phrase motion as a result of it’s not fairly that, however a proper wing that may type an everlasting and significant counterweight to a dominant left and a dominant progressive March that we’ve seen happening over the course of let’s simply say, the post-war interval, actually from the 90s and the tip of the Chilly Warfare up till now. And the premise there may be that the conservativism that got here earlier than. I used to be lately taking a look at an image on-line of a ebook known as Younger Weapons that includes Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor. I’m acquainted with this cowl. O.Okay Sure. Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy. Yeah Kevin McCarthy. O.Okay, in order that’s the picture of the failed conservative motion that what this new set of figures and cultural texts are attempting to exchange. So let’s try to get into what’s an genuine cultural proper to me passage press. And the work you’re doing is clearly linked to a bunch of various teams, proper. So you’ve gotten the Silicon Valley of somebody like yarvin. Peter Thiel is clearly usually invoked as a godfather in that zone. There’s the Crimson Scare podcast. And the so-called dime sq. scene in New York, which is mainly and once more, for listeners who assume this can be a contradiction in phrases. It’s mainly proper wing hipsters. Yeah then you’ve gotten the nietzschean former graduate pupil turned on-line essayist and influencer, Bronze Age pervert, who has obtained fascinating profiles in mainstream publications. So these can be examples that I’d see. However who do you see as your allies and fellow vacationers within the cultural mission. Oh Yeah. No, that’s completely proper. I believe you’ve hit the first individuals, the first figures, and also you’re capturing what the zeitgeist is right here, for lack of a greater time period. And it’s nonetheless being developed. And I’d be mendacity to you if I mentioned that I had some intentional mission right here or some intentional aesthetic that I used to be attempting to domesticate with this. So the concept is that the longer term is found. O.Okay we’re not going to have the ability to predict forward of time what this new tradition will seem like. It’s throwing these elements on the market based mostly on a sort of shared understanding on the highest stage of abstraction, some sort of alignment that, a minimum of for now, is outlined in opposition of each the left and wokeness, which is straightforward, nevertheless it’s additionally outlined in some sense in opposition to the conservativism that has come earlier than, not as a result of it’s antagonistic in direction of that sort of conservatism per se, however that sort of conservatism is restricted in what it could possibly produce creatively. And this can be a lot of the frustration that individuals have had with the proper is anytime anybody on the conservative facet goes to make some sort of artwork or do tradition. It’s simply dangerous. And the left is correct about this. There’s been a minimum of for my lifetime, this critique that the proper can’t do artwork and why and why tradition. So why is that. What is correct wing artwork lacking. That the proper wing counterculture is attempting to provide. What are the elements It’s not. It’s not traditionally true, however a minimum of proper within the final 30, 40 years. So I believe partly it’s concern of the unknown. It’s a scarcity of tolerance for creative license and the messiness and chaos of what’s entailed by the inventive course of. And it’s simply the case that if you’re going to embark on a brand new cultural mission, it’s a must to have some quantity of style for offense. And O.Okay, I’ll say this. There’s in all probability three facets to why conservative artwork is dangerous or has been dangerous. And that is reductive, in fact, however this would possibly assist body issues. It’s moralistic. It’s a lot too moralistic. It’s didactic. It’s at all times attempting to let you know a self-consciously conservative message. It’s overly sentimental. After which there’s additionally this nostalgia factor. It’s at all times wanting backwards and and conservative artwork is at all times trying to the previous as a result of it’s acquainted. It’s one thing that’s already been established. It’s one thing for which they already know what they’re alleged to what’s good and what’s not good. So there’s no threat in attempting something new. After which the third factor I’ll say right here is that it’s grievance oriented. And this is available in two kinds. It’s both we’re proudly owning the libs or right here’s a narrative about all the methods the libs are making our lives insufferable. Effectively, let’s- I need to make this only a tiny bit extra concrete and say from any interval, not the final 20 years, any interval in American life, fashionable Western historical past. Give me an instance of one thing you take into account profitable proper wing artwork that doesn’t fall into the traps you’ve described. Certain, no nation for Previous Males for instance, nevertheless it’s not self-consciously proper wing, proper. I doubt, the Coen brothers would name themselves on the proper. And I don’t even know if Cormac McCarthy, who wrote the ebook. It’s based mostly on. However to my thoughts, it’s exactly proper wing artwork, or David Lynch. Just about every thing David Lynch touches, I believe, has a sure sort of a proper wing coating to it, actually. So give me so what’s the coding. What makes to a listener for whom it appears absurd to name no nation for Previous Males proper wing. What makes that proper wing to you. O.Okay as a result of I prefer it. It’s good. And due to this fact I need it to share my political preferences. However past that, and that is the place there can be some factors of disagreement, by the best way, it additionally calls one thing like ladies. The TV present ladies is a proper wing present. Effectively, that now you’re simply pandering to me as a result of that was my that was my constant view. Sure this can be a pastime horse of mine Sure All proper. So then we would share the premise right here that what constitutes quote unquote proper wing artwork, which is, by the best way, some labeling we’re grafting onto this factor after the actual fact. And so it’s truly a really flimsy sort of labeling. However what these items of labor are doing is telling the reality concerning the world in a approach that isn’t compromised by creative or ideological preferences references about how these occasions and these characters and these individuals. Society needs had been true about these individuals. So my factor is that if you’re telling the reality concerning the world, then you’re going to make proper wing artwork. However isn’t that then slightly round. Then you definitely’re saying all nice artwork is by some means proper wing. Wish to me, as an example, I really feel a TV present that I’ve loved is and Andor. It’s one of many few Star Wars exhibits that I’ve loved. I see that as sort of left wing artwork. It’s a present that makes use of the background of the empire and the Star Wars universe to inform a narrative about punishing militaristic tyranny and resistance to it in methods which are of left coded. But in addition it’s a very good present. Whereas I’d have a look at ladies and say, look, it’s in the long run, it’s a scabrous satire of a selected sort of higher center class way of life in a liberal metropolis. And so it’s coming from a proper wing perspective. I really feel like- So do you think- Can there be nice left wing artwork out of your perspective. I suppose Yeah. However I’ll say this I believe it relies upon. I perceive your level, that it’s extremely reductive to only merely say, if I prefer it, due to this fact it’s proper wing artwork, or if it tells the reality, it tells the reality is what you’re saying. However O.Okay, so what I imply by that, although, is some extent of clarification is there are specific, a minimum of fashionable left wing premises that help their worldview and their political agenda that I believe are belied by somebody telling the reality concerning the world. And right here’s an instance of this. The left takes as a foundational precept of its politics the concept of equality, high quality that there’s a sort of flattening individuals. And that by fastidiously managed social engineering, we will produce a society that both ranges out any sort of pure hierarchy or produce a system that by some means can wrangle these pure, nearly supernatural, entropic forces which are continuously creating chaos and continuously requiring our upkeep and administration and authority to take care of. O.Okay, good. That’s what. In order that’s what I used to be searching for. So this takes us into one of many phrases that I believe will get used to explain what the counterculture is as much as. And I do know you’re ambivalent about this phrase, nevertheless it’s the concept that will get known as vitalism. Which is that this time period meaning, let’s say, a celebration of individuality, energy, excellence and an anxiousness about equality and democracy. As simply the best way you described as leveling forces enemies of human greatness, and it will get related to Friedrich Nietzsche. I believe there’s an Ayn Rand who’s of a very talked-about novelist on the American. No matter you make of her precise books is in some sense on this college. However that, to me, looks like one widespread thread in together with within the books that you simply your self have printed. Like what hyperlinks the White Russian normal standing athwart the Bolsheviks to the Hardy boys, to Conan the barbarian? It’s some sort of thought of human greatness beset by mediocrity and so forth. What do you concentrate on that. Yeah, I believe that’s proper. I wouldn’t contest that primary abstract. I don’t need to overdue. Like how we’re fascinated with this phrase vitality. For the needs of this dialog, it’s sufficient to say it’s one thing a thymus, O.Okay, spiritedness, a self-will, a aliveness or additionally, I need to say that there’s a sure sort of eroticism to vitality that’s essential and has usually been lacking from the conservative view of the world. And I believe that’s a mistake. I believe you’re leaving one thing essential on the desk by not grappling with this notion of eroticism and what meaning and why it may be invaluable, particularly. And right here’s the premise we’re ranging from, and I believe we share this view that we’re reaching this section, whether or not it’s cyclical or there’s of this long run linear path of civilizational exhaustion, decay, decadence. That’s a phrase I do know you’ve used rather a lot. And this all requires rebirth. And the method of rebirth just isn’t mild. It’s It may be violent and tough. So I’d say that vitality has serves these two primary capabilities proper now. And why it’s invaluable for us to tackle board. One, it attracts younger individuals, younger individuals. I believe males particularly, ladies too, although, are naturally interested in this notion of vitality. They see it, they comprehend it. And so they need to be round it. The precise has failed for a very long time to draw younger individuals. That is lastly altering over the previous few years. It’s additionally a approach of overcoming, a sort of defeatism of this concept that issues are previous the purpose of saving, that we will’t do you something that each one there may be left for us within the twenty first century is to on the one hand, merely handle enjoying out this finish of historical past interval. This sense of vitality, I believe, presents one thing else. It presents the human topic the chance to advance positively and affirmatively into the longer term. In order that’s my protection of idealism, proper. And it’s an escape from. And now I’m going to maneuver to a second time period that you simply your self have used. Sure it’s an escape from what will get known as the longhouse. And also you talked about, women and men as every important in sure methods. However the longhouse is a particularly female coded narrative of like, what’s fallacious with up to date life. So what’s the longhouse. O.Okay, so I wrote this essay known as what’s the longhouse for First Issues journal. So you’ll be able to reply the query. Sure, I’d encourage anyone who’s who needs to know the exact particulars to go learn that article as a result of I spell out what I imply by it. And right here I’m going to speak and possibly extra obscure phrases, nevertheless it’s primarily an evidence, rationalization and exploration of what I understand as a sort of over feminization of society. And I don’t imply that because it’s explicitly ladies who’re taking on society, as a result of usually the longhouse is managed by males, and in some instances, it’s higher managed by males or extra severely and strictly managed by males. However it’s a sort of female approach of social administration that’s distinct from a sort of male or masculine coded social administration and group dynamics. There’s a sure it’s possibly a phrase is sort of a regime of maternal surveillance is a phrase I’ve used earlier than that preferences, for instance, inclusion, battle avoidance, consensus security. And these sorts of priorities supersede issues like reality discovering and competitors and the sorts of violent usually. And I don’t imply essentially bodily violent, however it may be that however a sort of combativeness that higher characterizes a sort of masculine mind-set about concepts. And once more, why this will get again to sure different issues we’ve talked about is the longhouse is actually flattening. It’s horizontal. Whereas masculine approach of doing issues on this mannequin is hierarchical, it’s vertical. And what a extra combative type of discourse, for instance, does, is assist set up these hierarchies and the place the worth of concepts are relative to at least one one other. The longhouse doesn’t enable for that, as a result of it’s extra keen on ensuring all people’s emotions are maintained and no person’s offended. And simply so listeners are clear, this can be a reference to I imply, there’s a sort of I’m going to name it a pseudo anthropology, as a result of I don’t assume you’re truly making particular claims concerning the human previous, however there’s a distinction between of longhouse tradition of a literal longhouse of a tribe, crowded collectively beneath one roof with what. The liberty of the steppe barbarian. Yeah, I imply, so this comes from Bronze Age pervert. O.Okay Bronze Age mindset, which is among the nice texts of the twenty first century. And I encourage all of the New York Occasions’ listeners to learn it. It’s essential in the event you truly need to perceive these things. I agree. So he talks concerning the longhouse and he’s bought his personal tackle it. I borrowed the time period. And truly why I believe the time period is so invaluable is as a result of it’s a sort of empty signifier. I don’t imply to tie it to this historic context. It’s an evocative picture. It’s this large, lengthy, O.Okay, literal home that we’re all caught within and also you’re constrained in how one can behave, how one can act. And I believe it’s hostile in direction of males particularly, having a sort of freedom of meeting with each other. So concrete examples can be the campaign towards Greek life at universities. You’ll see as longhouse in motion company HR departments and sensitivity trainings, longhouse in motion. Effectively, and you’ll see in all probability probably the most salient instance of this exactly as a result of it’s the place you’d least anticipate this sort of lengthy housed. Cultural framing to take root is the navy. And truly, Pete hedges has talked about this explicitly. Is that this integration of girls into the navy. We don’t must get into the politics of that. Simply suffice to say, although, that these historically male areas, our martial tradition has been now, it’s open to ladies. And this introduces new norms. It simply has to to ensure that it to work. And that is going to essentially change, and I’d argue, degrade the tradition of masculinity that preceded it to 2 objections or responses. The second might be extra particular to my very own worldview, however the first one, I believe, is a extra normal one which many listeners would have. They’d say, look what has truly occurred within the final 25 years within the longhouse period, as you describe it, is. Guess what. We eliminated restrictions on ladies’s development and so they began out competing males. They’re not lengthy housing males. They’re simply getting the promotions that males used to get. And succeeding in company America the place males used to succeed. And Sure, there are particular instances just like the navy the place bodily variations between women and men matter. And possibly there you may say gender equality has gone too far as a result of it ignores these bodily variations. However once you’re speaking about company America or political America or any of those environments, ladies are succeeding, males aren’t. And now males are complaining that ladies are oppressing them. Like, isn’t this simply isn’t the longhouse only a lengthy male whine a couple of failure to adequately compete and also you’re pretending Oh, for the times of the steppe barbarians. However possibly it’s best to suck it up and really compete on the grounds that we’ve in twenty first century America. What do you say to that. Yeah I imply, it’s a superbly cheap query to ask. And I do assume over the past nonetheless many a long time that there have been a variety of modifications within the office that may be attributed to ladies, very gifted ladies taking up management roles and succeeding in these roles, and due to this fact introducing extra ladies into the office based mostly on that success. I believe it’s completely wonderful for me to concede to that. The purpose I’m making is that by introducing this new distribution of personnel into public life, it has an impact on how these establishments are run and the norms that these establishments run on. After which it turns into an empirical query. Have they modified for the higher or have they modified for the more severe. And I believe most individuals go searching on the varied establishments, whether or not it’s media, whether or not it’s academia, whether or not it’s the company boardrooms which have discovered themselves in all kinds of spasms over DEI stuff over the past decade. Are they extra environment friendly or are they much less environment friendly. Are they working correctly. My argument can be that very self-evidently, the establishments during which all of those modifications have occurred are actually performing worse than they used to. And that’s, a minimum of partly, attributable to this variation in norms. And this variation in norms in flip, is attributable to this variation in personnel. All proper. Now, a extra private objection rooted in my very own non secular commitments, which is that as you say, I’ve loads of sympathy for the broad view that fashionable, late fashionable life has develop into decadent and a few sort of sense of risk, some sort of sense of motion, some sort of sense of human capability is de facto essential to getting us both out of this trench or by no matter bizarre bottleneck digital life and I are going to create. I agree with all of that. Nonetheless, I’m additionally a Christian. And all the authors that I’ve talked about who’re a part of the vitalist custom, Nietzsche, Rand, Bronze Age, pervert, see themselves working in opposition to Christianity. They see Christianity as essentially it’s both it’s a faith of the weak. It’s a faith of girls. Maybe it’s towards the erotic. And so after I have a look at after I have a look at the proper wing counterculture proper now, I see a power that has there are people who find themselves actually into traditionalist Catholicism and whatnot there. However there’s additionally lots of people who I believe in their very own story about what went fallacious with the proper, the Normie proper, the boring proper of Kevin McCarthy assume at some stage, it was a bunch of weak, skinny, milk ingesting Christians who didn’t perceive that what is definitely greatest in life is to crush your enemies, to see them pushed earlier than you, and to listen to the lamentations of their ladies. So I’m curious, what’s your perspective in direction of these debates. What’s your perspective in direction of Christianity and faith. Yeah, I imply, my perception is that there’s precise great quantity of synchronicity between these two modes of working on the planet. And it’s not simply my perception my favourite creator and really a passage press comes from the ebook forest passage by Ernst jünger. And there’s an awesome ebook of letters between youthful and Martin Heidegger. And junger’s Youthful’s view, truly, is that none of this sort of vitalism, none of that is sustainable with out faith and really Christianity particularly, and that our thought of poetics and the inscrutable forces of the universe towards that are particular person will is being examined always during which a sort of vitalist view of the world is insisting we’re continuously pushing towards all needs to be dwell within this framework of Christianity. So I don’t assume these items are incompatible. However youthful however so youthful. If I’m remembering his trajectory accurately. He was half he’s a part of the German. Right He’s not a Nazi, however he serves within the Third Reich. He’s not somebody who listeners ought to consider as Heidegger, who simply goes who goes Nazi in that approach. However he stays very a lot on the anti-liberal proper all through that interval. And my sense of him is that he did have {that a} view of Christianity, as you described to a point, nevertheless it was Christianity as a sort of helpful power for resisting the degradation of modernity and so forth. After which he does truly develop into a Catholic in very outdated age. So it’s such as you get to be a vitalist for a lot of a long time. After which on the finish, you’re like, all proper, all proper, time to succumb to full Christianity. And it simply appears to me that even in vitalism, there are people who find themselves anti-Christian like Bronze Age pervert just like the Nazis. After which there are individuals who need to put it to make use of. However I’m slightly ambivalent about having my faith put to make use of in that approach. Yeah I imply, your concern is that it’s merely being, cynically operationalized, not even not even cynically, nevertheless it’s extra like Christianity is that this nice mythic construction that inside which we will function. And so forth. And that’s not what I consider about Christianity. So I believe Christianity is a real fable and imposes constraints. I suppose that’s a part of it, proper. The Christian doesn’t simply assume that nature imposes constraints. It’s that God imposes constraints as properly. However let’s not let’s not keep without end within the particularities of dogma. As a result of I need to speak about Donald Trump. Sure carry us, carry us from Ernst Jünger to Donald Trump, proper. And so Trump himself, proper. Once more, we’re attempting to speak extra about tradition than politics. Trump begins as a cultural determine. Anybody anybody who’s sufficiently old to recollect the Trump who existed earlier than he grew to become a politician remembers the tabloid fixture, the truth TV star, the self creator whose life is, in a bizarre approach, its personal sort of work of American standard artwork. However you’ve written a bunch about Trump as a heroic determine. You’ve explicitly in contrast him to Aeneas. Talking of mythological heroes, speak to me about that Trump as hero. What does that imply. O.Okay I’ve a considerably idiosyncratic view of Donald Trump. Sure as a sort of a person out of time. And so I wrote this text or essay known as Aeneas in Washington. And the concept was that Donald Trump has revived or assumed actually this sort of mythic stature. He’s a mythic hero. And particularly, I’ve this idea. It’s not my idea, however I’ve utilized it to Trump, of retrocausality. Trump has this unusual skill, for my part to reconstitute the previous. How we perceive Trump and his life earlier than he entered politics just isn’t a strict, linear factor that’s unchanging in time. Really, over the past 5 years particularly. So since he misplaced the 2020 election, this interim interval the place he was beset by these lawsuits and he was threatened with jail time and he was shot at and practically killed. We will look again at his previous and see a brand new narrative about his life that implies the potential of this sort of rebirth from this civilizational exhaustion that I believe is de facto the core description of our current second. Now, on this essay, I additionally level out this idea known as charisma starvation. And there was a sociologist from the center twentieth century, Erik Erikson, fairly outstanding. And he had this concept that within the fashionable world and this has rather a lot to do with truly, the lack of non secular conviction and non secular life that we had been in quest of these figures, these heroes. I’m very conscious of the likelihood that I’m succumbing to this charisma starvation that Erikson recognized a long time in the past. And nonetheless, I do assume and I believe the individuals’s response to Trump, their impression of him. I noticed for the opposite day, did you see this wrestler who received the NCAA title and he’s draped within the American flag, this gladiator, and he provides this nice large hug to Donald Trump. And in so some ways, Trump is this sort of nice father of the American individuals, or sure section of the American individuals who have embraced him. And he’s not only a politician. He’s not only a president. He’s not only a TV star. And to my thoughts, that speaks to this legendary character. Yeah I imply, look, my very own view of Trump, as you in all probability has modified. I believe we’ve of every moved and every shifted, and I’ve ended up nearer to the place you had been 4 years in the past, and also you’ve gone a bit additional. So I simply had bother from the start of seeing Trump as something apart from a symptom of decadence. The truth TV host turns into president of the USA as a result of he’s triumphing over all these mediocrities and failed politicians. And so forth. But it surely’s solely and he’s representing a sort of revolt towards decadence, I agree, a need for one thing extra. However he manifests that decadence on the identical time. That was my primary take. After which in over the identical interval that you’ve come to see him as a heroic determine, I’ve come to see him as. Yeah, somebody who has a extra providential place, an even bigger place in historical past, who continues to be a part of a decadent period, possibly continues to be extra of an anti-hero than a hero, however is greater than I assumed. And there may be a few of that. Retrocausality after getting Trump surviving the assassination try, you learn that again into the previous. Sure however I wouldn’t go so far as you do, I suppose, for causes. I believe a part of the rationale possibly connects again to what we had been simply going backwards and forwards about my Christian doubts, about vitalism. To me, I have a look at Trump, and I see somebody who has extra capacities than I credited with him in the beginning, however the capacities that he lacks are restraint, magnanimity, a way of ethical limitation. And I believe that lack is related to the truth that I don’t assume he’s essentially non secular. I believe possibly he believes in Windfall now that Windfall saved him. However not in any sort of conventionally Christian approach. And I believe it’s the rationale why it’s each cheap for liberals to fret about the place that urge for food of facet of him takes us, but in addition simply to fret about once more, the chaos and mismanagement and all of the issues that additionally are available from an absence of restraint. Yeah I imply, I believe that’s honest. However and I’d additionally say for others who share your view right here on this battle between your non secular convictions and what Trump would possibly symbolize, that is squarely inside our Civil non secular custom. I imply, if you concentrate on the best way that for many of our historical past, actually up till just like the Obama years, we considered our founding figures and the best way that they’re introduced in artwork and the best way they’re written about in our political and civil non secular texts. They’re fairly explicitly, divinely guided. I imply, the hand of God is like reaching down and transferring. Thomas Jefferson, who additionally was not non secular in any significant respect, and George Washington and John Adams, et cetera, and putting them, the hand of destiny is on high of them. And so it’s not these items wish to think about that Trump is reviving that custom or is now occupying that very same function just isn’t in contradiction to this lengthy custom of civil faith that we’ve had beforehand. It would require extra proof for you. You would possibly must see, I believe the problem is extra that, in the event you see the hand of Windfall working by George Washington and John Adams within the founding of America, you may see the hand of Windfall working by Donald Trump within the chastisement of America, proper. That Trump, is a good man of historical past whose function is to chastise the liberal intelligentsia and the never-trumpers and all these teams that failed to control America. But it surely doesn’t imply that on the finish of the day, he’s truly saving America. Generally it’s only a chastisement. Like that. I really feel like that risk deserves extra consideration from individuals who have this sort of mystical response to the drama of the Trump period. However I needed to only on that query of restraint a part of what Trump does, a part of his lack of restraint is a refusal to respect any taboos to push by regardless of the taboos of progressive tradition are. And in the identical approach, proper a part of the proper wing counterculture is all about taboo busting. However a kind of taboos, and that is one thing that connects Trump in some methods to the counterculture is taboos round race, proper. As a result of there’s loads of racism in proper wing counterculture in varied kinds. It’s there within the on-line memes. It’s there within the can be nietzscheans like bap. Anybody who goes from this dialog. And will get a replica of Bronze Age mindset and reads, sure paragraphs will say, properly, this man is a terrific racist, proper. Certain and I need to supply earlier than you interpret this, I need to supply three interpretations. Take the interviewer’s privilege. I believe you may say, O.Okay, that is nearly that is about performative revolt. A counterculture must shatter taboos. The taboos of liberal tradition are round race and gender. Chance to you need to reclaim and relegitimize components of the American previous. American previous had loads of racists. You’re attempting to revive and reconstitute a misplaced progressive world. It’s inherent within the mission that you simply’re mainly attempting to rehabilitate writers and thinkers who up to date piety would try to rule out as a result of they held, on the very least, un-pc opinions. So these are two arguments that I see as justifications full or not, for the sort of racist stuff. However then there’s additionally the likelihood that there’s only a severe perception in racial inequality. And possibly it’s probably not legitimizing Nazism, however in the event you spend a good period of time on-line, it’s not that many levels of separation from the proper wing counterculture to individuals on excom speaking about what an awesome artist Hitler was such an awesome, such an awesome artist, which I so anyway, I needed to supply these as interpretations. After which have you ever speak about why. Why is the proper wing counterculture racist. Certain properly, first, let me begin by saying I don’t assume truly, Adolf Hitler was an awesome artist. I believe he was truly poor and technically poor in sure methods which are very apparent once you have a look at his portray. However O.Okay, technically, the technical deficiencies of Adolf Hitler are positively, positively there in a couple of locations in his life. Sure so that is truly this can be a actually fascinating query. And naturally, it’s price addressing. And I believe all the stuff you mentioned can concurrently be true. And I believe there’s a fourth level I need to add right here, which is traditionally contextual. We began this dialog by attempting to assume again to the place this present second of our cultural, social, mental, ideological path started and we recognized someplace within the 2010s. Now every thing I’m about to speak about has precursors. However one thing else occurs right here round 2012. And possibly you determine the Trevon Martin case into 2013, 2014. Actually there’s the Michael Brown, fingers up, don’t shoot Black Lives Matter concurrently, that we’ve a sort of a dialogue occurring on this nation round immigration. And what would occur to this nation. If we began permitting individuals in from everywhere in the world. Is all people the identical from all over the place. And if we’re going to have a pluralistic democracy, what does that seem like in a future the place it’s not a non-white, predominantly white nation. These are respectable issues to consider lots of people didn’t need us having these conversations beforehand. However then what occurs in 2013 14, after which scales up over the course of the 2010s. Is that this insistence and once more, I believe that is essential coming from the left, that we’ve our second of racial reckoning. O.Okay, so a bunch of individuals then are being requested to have a tough dialog about race and the prevailing view, which is taken on by the New York Occasions’ by academia, by and enormous, is that any variations in outcomes amongst individuals will be ascribed to this infinitely amorphous, non-falsifiable, infinitely pervasive factor known as systemic racism. And that is, if not deliberately facto, the fault of the White inhabitants within the nation. So the query then is that true. Are we allowed to have a look at the precise causes of why these discrepancies exist. And it simply is the case that once you have a look at these variations, they aren’t attributable to white racism. You’ll be able to truly determine causes. So I believe loads of younger individuals on-line who’re discovering themselves getting the brief finish of the stick on these, this new regime of DEI are reacting to it in. And so loads of this sort of racialized dialog is a response, is a solution to the insistence that each one of those variations are white individuals’s fault. So I purchase a model of that argument. And I believe it’s very clear simply from watching the tradition that the ascendance of sure sorts of DEI narratives Robin D’Angelo stuff, the place it’s like white individuals are conducting psychological self-scrutiny and so forth to root out the hidden structural racism of their coronary heart. All of that contributes to an emergence way more than at any level in my lifetime of a sort of distinct white racial identification amongst some conservatives. Youthful conservatives, particularly on-line conservatives, particularly individuals within the orbit of the proper wing counterculture, particularly. That is all, I suppose, a number of totally different questions, although, proper. One that also may be dangerous, proper. If it’s dangerous to have a tribalist view of politics amongst non-whites, isn’t it probably dangerous to have a tribalist view amongst whites. Even in the event you’re making a cultural, political rationalization the place it’s comprehensible. That’s query one. Query 2 is extra concrete. It’s like, O.Okay, how far again are you. Are you attempting to show the dial. And I need to maintain it in tradition. So I’m going to present a cultural instance. I grew up I used to be an enormous fan of the Tintin books. The Tintin comics, the boy detective captain haddock. And so forth. These had been an enormous affect in my childhood within the Nineteen Eighties, Nineteen Nineties. The Tintin books are from 1920 by 1960. One of many early Tintin books is known as Tintin within the Congo. And it’s tremendous racist. Like it’s a set of tremendous racist caricatures of Africans that aren’t like pleasant ethnic stereotypes. The best way the looks of like, Arabs and Italians are elsewhere within the ebook. They’re extra racist than that. Effectively, I’ll simply be actually express. Would you publish Tintin like Tintin within the Congo. Disappeared, proper. Was it good that it disappeared. I’m not acquainted with this precise ebook. O.Okay properly, in concept, think about you may. You’ll be able to choose one other. However like is it. Sure is it O.Okay that sure issues from the previous that had been very racist disappear. No so, so this can be a very simple query for me to reply. And the reply is Sure. I’d publish it on the belief that it has a sort of literary worth that’s unbiased from these objections it’s a must to these racial caricatures. So there have you ever seen who Framed Roger Rabbit. The film Sure Yeah. The film. O.Okay Sure. There’s this nice second in who Framed Roger Rabbit, the place Roger is handcuffed to the detective. And that is inflicting all of them kinds of issues. And ultimately the detective is attempting to noticed {the handcuffs} off. And Roger at one level simply slips out of {the handcuffs} on this sight gag. It’s humorous. And the detective very angrily says to him, you’re telling me you may do this at any time. And Roger Rabbit says to him, no, solely when it’s humorous. And the upshot of this anecdote is that if it’s humorous, O.Okay, and humorous, right here now could be a stand in for has creative worth unbiased of the factor occurring, then it’s price preserving and value taking part in. So this Tintin ebook, or Tintin I don’t is that Tintin is the snobby French approach of claiming it. Most People would say Tintin Yeah Yeah, actual People. Which I’m a vulgar populist, Trump supporters. So I don’t know the way Trump supporters say Tintin. New York Occasions’ columnists say Tintin. Yeah So the query, the working query for me as a writer is it humorous. And once more, does it have worth. Does it have creative advantage. Then there’s additionally the archival factor. The archival operate is essential for a writer. These are essential texts. They inform us one thing not nearly who we had been, however in flip about who we’re and easily forgetting that these items existed. Does no person any good in any respect. I don’t assume we have to defend individuals from that sort of offense. The opposite level, which is isn’t aren’t these views dangerous, although. And so we must always disarm on these questions. If I perceive what you’re placing to me. And I’d say possibly sort of it relies upon, as a result of these views do have penalties that we have to correctly deal with. And the one technique to deal with them is by being sincere about causes. So if we’re speaking about, for instance, crime charges and we wish we see uneven incarceration charges. And our reply is, properly, there’s overpolicing. However then our answer to that’s we do away with police. Effectively that creates a rise in crime. And no, so long as disarming on these questions and never being sincere about these questions permits for these sorts of social pathologies to rule over how we operate in life, I believe is dangerous, and we have to be sincere about them. And this doesn’t. Yeah Yeah. However what. However nonetheless there. There’s a query past that concerning the cultural facet of this. Like, once more, the world of memes and discourse. And so forth. Sure it consists of some rehabilitation of conventional conservative arguments about issues with the welfare state or the need of policing which are acquainted from the Nineteen Eighties and Nineteen Nineties, that the progressive consensus suppressed. That’s totally different to me from youngsters on-line posting racist memes, proper. And saying, it’s simply irony. I’m simply being ironic. And busting taboos. O.Okay however at a sure level, doesn’t the masks develop into the face. Doesn’t the irony develop into indistinguishable from simply being towards sort of towards Black individuals. After which for you, as a writer. It’s wonderful to say we must always protect these we must always have historic reminiscence. We should always know what the previous was like. However I don’t assume you’d need to be such as you would have a sure viewers if passage press, pivoted additional. And was like, we’re publishing, we’re publishing Romel books by Alexander Stephens and confederates and so forth. Wouldn’t you are worried about your self in that situation, even in the event you thought it was wonderful don’t need these items banned, however do you need to be the individual publishing all of that. No, not essentially. I believe there are publishers who’re already like filling that area of interest. So it’s not my accountability to try this. But in addition in the event you’re the sort of one who’s keen on that content material, it’s been there and you’ll go discover it and I’m glad you’ll be able to. I believe truly these items are essential for us to have the ability to talk about. And I’d say this to your concern about these racial taboos particularly. I truly don’t deal with them any totally different than some other sort of political or social taboo. There’s some added, possibly vitriol or sharpness to a few of these memes we’re seeing now, however that’s principally as a result of this can be a subject of dialog, a class of dialog that has been completely verboten for some time now. O.Okay, let’s name it a minimum of a number of a long time. And the issue with this explicit subject, for my part, is that it begins with the supposition that it’s firstly an ethical query, and any respectable individual, morally respectable individual already agrees with these primary anti-racist premises. So to even elevate the questions, it’s a mark towards your character, and we will’t even get to the purpose the place we’re having the coverage debate. And what that creates, then, is that this atmosphere during which individuals who need to have this debate have to determine a technique to speak about it and get by these filters. And I believe the sort of abrasive meme making that you simply’re figuring out relating to racial questions is a operate of the style during which this a part of the discursive panorama has been beforehand closed off. And if we open it again up and permit for sober dialog, then it’ll lose the facility to hold these memes, they only received’t be as fascinating or humorous as a result of they’re not as taboo. I suppose I’m extra skeptical of that. Not within the sense that I believe that in the event you enable or encourage sure debates that instantly the US turns into the antebellum South or Nazi Germany, however simply that there are lots of people and this there’s variations of this on the left and points round anti-Semitism, particularly on the left which are of a separate dialog. However there may be some overlap. I believe it’s dangerous for individuals to be able the place they’re questioning not what’s the correct design of welfare coverage and policing. However do we have to do. We have to give some reconsideration to Hitler’s views about Jewish conspiracies? And I’m not saying I’m not. I’m not accusing you of taking that place. I’m simply saying proper now, after I have a look at these areas, it’s like I’m a baby of the Nineteen Nineties, proper. I believe it was O.Okay to dwell in a world the place there have been taboos about Nazi Germany and the Jim Crow South, and that didn’t should preclude having sincere debates about race and crime and policing and all of these items. However I simply after I have a look at, once more, the ethical character that’s inspired by racist meme tradition, not anxious they’re going to take over. I’m simply anxious about them, I suppose. O.Okay, however Yeah, I’d simply ask, what precisely are you anxious about. So let me begin with this. Initially, lies are brittle. In the end they crumble. Reality is sturdy, O.Okay. And to construct something that’s lasting, it has to relaxation on high of reality. And so we’ve to start out there. That’s my view O.Okay. And as a way to uncover reality, we have to be keen to check our assumptions about every thing and repeatedly take a look at these assumptions. And if we don’t repeatedly take a look at these assumptions, we not simply overlook what we consider, we overlook why we consider these issues. And I believe that is truly one thing the left has fallen in. The entice of the left has sort of forgotten find out how to make the argument for their very own beliefs, as a result of they’ve denied anyone who objects to their underlying assumptions concerning the world. I believe it will be a mistake for us to erect a sort of discursive power area round sure classes of questions in an effort to preclude the sort of discomfort. And once more, this concern that you simply’re articulating to me could be very obscure. I don’t truly know what you’re anxious about. I imply, individuals have been questioning these narratives for a very long time. David Irving has been difficult the Holocaust for a very long time is prefer it higher to not have these conversations. I don’t assume it’s. I believe we must always simply let it out. It might exist on the planet. Yeah and once more, that is the very last thing I’ll say. However I believe it’s partially such as you began out speaking about how your sense I believe you’d put it this manner that there was anti-white racism at work in progressive politics and tradition within the final 5 or 10 years that appropriate that there was a critique of whiteness as this miasmic power that was functionally like functionally utilized, a sort of suspicion and hostility in direction of anybody who was white, actually anybody who was white and male. And I wouldn’t go so far as you with that, however I don’t assume that’s fallacious. I believe it was dangerous. It could even be dangerous for there to be increasingly anti-black racism, or anti-Semitic curiosity on the proper, simply because it impacts our shared life. And I believe in ways in which have cultural results, have political results. I believe they have an affect on the Trump administration. I believe one of many ways in which the Trump administration might fail, as I mentioned earlier than, is that it’s not a racial difficulty per se, nevertheless it regards a few of its fellow residents with a sure sort of contempt. That’s an issue for a can be nice chief. I believe contempt is dangerous. I believe racism encourages a sort of contempt. And so, yeah, I don’t have a single like America goes to develop into Nazi concern. However I do have a concern concerning the impression of taboo busting round race on the sort of establishments that proper wing individuals would possibly construct and so forth. So, I imply, I perceive the place the issues are coming from. I suppose I believe it’s unfounded. I don’t assume it truly will materialize into one thing actual and one thing we’ll have to fret about. And I believe truly the choice presents a a lot worse risk. And I believe we noticed a few of that with the nice awokening or this post-george Floyd 2020 impulse to not simply blame white individuals for this sort of subordinate place of individuals of coloration per se, however then make precise coverage selections or institutional selections to attempt to stage that by harming white individuals. And so what I’d say right here is the rationale that was dangerous was not as a result of it pointed to racial discrepancies, however as a result of it was fallacious, it didn’t go the take a look at of proof. However the query isn’t just is the discrepancy exists, the query is, why. And if we don’t enable ourselves to have an sincere dialog about that, what fills the vacuum is probably the most incendiary and most dangerous explanations. So it’s truly for my part, incumbent on individuals in positions of prominence who can have a look at these questions soberly, who can consider the proof and make Frank statements concerning the explanations for these disparities. All proper. Let’s simply speak briefly concerning the future. How lasting do you assume that the vibe shift or no matter else is will turn into. So that you’re in the beginning. I launched you proper because the host of an inaugural ball. You’re showing on a New York Occasions’ podcast. A really outstanding place. However passage press is a boutique writer. And there may be. We didn’t actually get into this, however there’s a mass, clearly, a extra mass market facet of the vibe shift. I believe the Joe Rogan’s and Theo Vaughn’s the and all the best way to Andrew Tate. Vitalist proper. All of that, all of that’s there. And a part of the tradition. However even that also, to me, exists in a fairly separate universe from the individuals who make pop musical TV or who publish mass market fiction. So I’m curious, do you see that a part of the tradition transferring rightward? Books, films, TV. What would that seem like. Yeah, I do. I truly assume it’s going to be a full scale vibe shift and I full scale Reagan period stage or greater. Yeah, I do assume it very properly could possibly be Reagan period stage. Now, I wasn’t rather a lot. I used to be alive, however I used to be too younger to recollect. What had been Reagan period. You had been absorbing his charisma. However I’ve watched sufficient John Hughes films to grasp how that expresses itself in standard tradition. And I believe we’re going to have exactly the identical sort of vibe shift that infiltrates these mainstream media kinds. O.Okay, right here’s an instance. I sit round with my household each from time to time, and we watch American Idol. And Carrie Underwood, who sang at The inauguration, is now one of many judges on American Idol. Simply the mere indisputable fact that this huge pop star, who has one of many greatest platforms in pop music, is concurrently affiliating herself with the Trump administration is sufficient to counsel that there’s something significant and enduring and broad about this vibe shift. You even have, I consider it’s Larry Ellison’s son who simply purchased Paramount Footage. He’s a sort of conservative, they’re going to be doing these Prime Gun esque movies that basically embrace a sort of patriotic zeal, I suppose you may say. Now, I warned at the start that it will be a mistake for conservatives to easily undertake a sort of nostalgia and mawkish patriotism. So I don’t hope that’s all there may be. However that’s an ideal place for that sort of ethos and aesthetic to exist in these large blockbuster films, and I believe they’ll. Individuals are actually exhausted by wokeness. So it’s not simply that the proper and this proper coded artwork is ascendant. It’s as a lot to do with the truth that Snow White, this new Snow White launch could be very unpopular. Individuals don’t need these things anymore. And so there’s going to be a pure opening for newer, let’s simply say vitalist sort of artwork. All proper. So final query. Donald Trump calls you up and he says you’re in command of the Nationwide Endowment for the Arts, and also you’re establishing a program to have a good time America’s 250th. And a part of that program is you’re going to ask each highschool senior to public highschool senior, possibly use the leverage remaining within the half dismantled division of training to implement this, to learn one ebook and see one film. Yeah what do you suggest. That is good. You place this query. I’m not going to cover the ball from the viewers. You place this query to me earlier this morning. I needed. I needed a superb reply, proper. Effectively once you ask it, instantly you’re like oh, God, are you going to say the godfather? As a result of it’s. O.Okay, good. See there you go. That’s at all times. I’m not going to say the godfather, though I did have issue spontaneously developing with a superb reply. What? one ebook encapsulates what I’m attempting to perform with this. So the factor I’m the factor I’ve thought lengthy and laborious about and what I noticed after I was a lecturer at UCI. There’s been this sort of severing of a continuity between the previous and the current, and I believe it’s an intentional severing. And these youngsters like, they only they’re not well-read. They don’t actually know something. I imply, I spent half of my courses simply educating like Wikipedia tier historical past, simply so we will have sufficient context to have the dialog concerning the precise stuff we’re speaking about. So one factor that I’d positively, I believe is way wanted is to reestablish a sort of continuity, a literary mental, cultural continuity with the previous. So the ebook I’d select for that is Moby Dick, and it’s a really apparent cliché alternative, nevertheless it’s a factor that sort of all people from all ages in the event you’re an American, this can be a ebook you simply ought to know. I believe Moby Dick is actually American, and particularly represents a sort of East Coast American founding. And it’s this man towards nature and God. And there’s additionally the chaos of the plurality of the forged. And it’s very American in that approach. It’s this industrious, pluralistic nearly democracy on the boat. So it’s additionally transcendence by conquest, which is a really American thought. After which my counterpoint to that, which I believe is a pleasant coda is not any nation for Previous Males can be the film. Moby Dick is conquest and it’s the Atlantic. And now Cormac McCarthy and no nation for Previous Males. The movie particularly, the Coen brothers movie, is the border, the terminus of the West, the border with Mexico, it’s additionally late epic. It’s the exhaustion of American conquest. And we’re additionally now there’s this power on the middle of the ebook, this inscrutable, mysterious, supernatural power. It’s not in Moby Dick. It’s the factor they’re chasing. It’s the whale in a no nation for Previous Males. It’s evil. It’s chasing them that has come proper to now. Destiny is coming to precise. It’s payback for what America has develop into. So it’s America on the finish, at this second of civilizational exhaustion. And it’s exactly this level that we have to escape out of. And that is my hope for the longer term is how will we take the metaphysics of No Nation for Previous Males and create some sort of rebirth to our nationwide identification, our nationwide character, our internal primordial being, and discover that life power that may as soon as once more lengthen past these borders. All proper. On that chthonic observe, Jonathan Keeperman, Thanks a lot for becoming a member of me. Thanks, Ross. This was nice.
