Hey, how are you? Hey Ross, how are you? I’m nice. I’m nice. What a tremendous head of- That is nice. Thanks. You look incredible. You look very important, one may say. It is a essential a part of the discourse on the net proper. Nicely, we’re going to get into that. For New York Instances Opinion, I’m Ross Douthat, and that is Attention-grabbing Instances. There’s been quite a bit discuss a vibe shift in American life since Donald Trump’s return to energy, a shift not simply in American politics, however in American tradition. The place proper wing concepts and influences are immediately driving or shaping the dialog, and a progressive cultural consensus is cracking up. And a method I’ve been desirous about that is when it comes to a phrase that’s historically utilized to the left, and that phrase is counterculture. I believe America has, for the primary time in trendy reminiscence, a proper wing counterculture. A type of edgy, reactionary various to the established order. And so I assumed one strategy to discuss that counterculture was to ask somebody who I see- we’ll see if he disagrees- as considered one of its representatives. And that’s you, Jonathan. So, Jonathan Keeperman, welcome to Attention-grabbing Instances. Ross, it’s nice to be right here. We’ve recognized one another for some time on-line, after all, and I- Purely, purely as digital entities. Nicely, I’m seeing your face throughout from me on the display screen, and I’m reminded of watching Bloggingheads from 10, possibly even 15 years in the past. So we’ve come a great distance. Oh, that’s- Since Bloggingheads. That’s a deep minimize. In order that reveals simply how far again your on-line expertise actually goes. Yeah, that’s proper. Days once I had extra hair and it was, me and different junior varsity pundits arguing on the web, however I believe, and you may right me about this, I believe the primary time that we truly severely interacted on the web was after the 2020 election. And I used to be arguing with Lomez, who was/is your Twitter pseudonym. Appropriate. The persona by way of which you engaged with politics for an extended time frame, about whether or not Joe Biden was legitimately elected. Appropriate. And at that time, you had a twin identification. As Jonathan Keeperman. You have been nonetheless a lecturer, in English, at UC Irvine. Appropriate. That’s proper. And you then have been Lomez, a right-wing Anon is the time period that folks use. That’s proper. Who wrote pseudonymously on-line. In order that was 2020. After which in 2022, you based a proper wing publishing home known as Passage Press. And that, I’d say, raised your profile fairly dramatically to the purpose the place you have been essential sufficient to have your actual title uncovered by a reporter for The Guardian. Appropriate. in 2024. After which by January of 2025, only in the near past, you have been notable sufficient to host one of many huge inaugural balls, which was known as the Coronation Ball. So, did I miss something? How is that for an account of- These are the highlights. That each one tracks and covers floor properly sufficient for us to get began on this dialog. However I do need to level out that in 2020, once we first have been having this dialogue and debate over the election, you additionally had one thing of a pseudonym. And, I used to be arguing as a lot with Ross Douthat as I used to be Italics Ross. And Italics Ross- you had written at the least one column, possibly two, by which you made the case for why Trump may be a superior alternative to guide the nation, regardless of the quantity of chaos that we’d should endure underneath his management. And actually I used to be attempting, if I bear in mind the entire episode appropriately to get italics Ross nearer to the floor of the actual Ross, the underlying Ross. So all of us are trafficking in sure sorts of multi-identities I assume. So these have been columns that I wrote, the place I primarily, intentionally cultivated a type of break up character and drew up out of my Jungian unconscious a model of myself that may be pro-Trump, proper. So I used to be by no means for Trump. I used to be a part of “By no means Trump”, no matter that will have been. Means again prior to now. And I retained a fundamental view that it was a mistake for conservatives to latch themselves to the Trump phenomenon. And so for me, it was like, all proper, Italics Ross was not the true Ross lurking under the floor. That wasn’t how I considered it, however I considered it as a set of concepts that actually existed in my consciousness. And that have been actually helpful for understanding the place American tradition was, why individuals supported Trump, and that New York Instances readers wanted to have interaction with. I’m curious, earlier than we dig into the concepts themselves, was there like a second once you felt a type of shift within the tradition simply in the previous couple of years, the place it appeared such as you have been going to exist as your self as a public determine as an alternative of an arguer on-line. Yeah, it’s a very good query when that may have occurred. There actually was a shift. However what’s in all probability taking place right here is simply the identical previous cycle of leftist extra that we’ve seen periodically over the course of American historical past, at the least going again to Second World Conflict and possibly even earlier than that. There’s a decade of leftism that takes maintain, creates a type of counterculture. There’s a interval of pushback. And we noticed this, for instance, with the unique neocons within the 70s. We see this cycle then play out once more within the 90s with political correctness, one other principally 10 12 months cycle. After which all we’re simply seeing is that this identical sample emerge within the mid 2010s. I recognized 2014 as this inflection level. That was the 12 months of Michael Brown and Ferguson and the type of rise of BLM. It’s additionally this fascinating interval the place the Academy at the least, and I believe in all probability that is taking place inside newspapers and in media is popping out of this fascinating transition into the digital age and out of the recession. And there’s new incentives type of driving the content material. And what occurs there’s {that a} bunch of conservatives and particularly youthful conservatives who’re frozen out of the conservative motion or frozen out of mainstream politics or frozen out of the sorts of professions the place they could have a platform to precise new concepts that may regenerate conservatism, go surfing and go underground and begin growing a novel and Native model of discourse all our personal. And as that cycle of progressivism simply naturally exhausts itself, which it all the time does, and it takes new type every time. Nevertheless it type of all the time follows the identical plot. What we’re seeing now’s the emergence of this conservative. Some individuals counter-elite or countercultural pressure merely rising instead of the place the progressives have vacated. We might provide you with all kinds of that’s a boringly respectable story. Jonathan and I and I don’t imagine it. I imply, I do imagine it, however I believe what you’re describing, there’s a description of the trajectory that you simply see. As an example, with my former colleague Bari Weiss. And, and her publication, the free press, which has been tremendously profitable. And has represented of a gathering place for former liberals disillusioned by progressivism, numerous eccentric individuals who wouldn’t have known as themselves conservative however have ended up on the correct passage. Press you’re not publishing, a good libertarian critique of the welfare state. You’re publishing, fiction, bizarre tales and Radical Philosophy. You publish the Hardy Boys, the unique Hardy Boys earlier than some multicultural PC cleanups, right. You publish a warfare memoir by a Russian basic who fought in opposition to the Bolsheviks. Yeah you publish writing by Robert E Howard, the creator of Conan the Barbarian, HP Lovecraft. However somebody like Curtis yarvin, who’s an instance of an writer you’ve printed. Curtis yarvin thinks that the USA ought to turn into a type of primarily based monarchy run by some type of Silicon Valley esque chief govt. With a dissolution and revolution of the order of presidency in Washington, DC. Nick land is one other instance of subterranean, far proper intellectuals who wouldn’t have fellowships on the American Enterprise Institute. Who wouldn’t function in mainstream conservative or centrist or heart proper circles. So inform me, inform me about. Inform me about that stuff. So what are we attempting to do. So we’re attempting to revive what’s a real proper wing cultural and ideological. I hate the phrase motion as a result of it’s not fairly that, however a proper wing that may type an everlasting and significant counterweight to a dominant left and a dominant progressive March that we’ve seen going down over the course of let’s simply say, the post-war interval, actually from the 90s and the tip of the Chilly Conflict up till now. And the premise there’s that the conservativism that got here earlier than. I used to be lately taking a look at an image on-line of a ebook known as Younger Weapons that includes Paul Ryan, Eric Cantor. I’m acquainted with this cowl. O.Okay Sure. Eric Cantor, Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy. Yeah Kevin McCarthy. O.Okay, in order that’s the picture of the failed conservative motion that what this new set of figures and cultural texts try to exchange. So let’s attempt to get into what’s an genuine cultural proper to me passage press. And the work you’re doing is clearly linked to a bunch of various teams, proper. So you’ve gotten the Silicon Valley of somebody like yarvin. Peter Thiel is clearly usually invoked as a godfather in that zone. There’s the Pink Scare podcast. And the so-called dime sq. scene in New York, which is principally and once more, for listeners who suppose it is a contradiction in phrases. It’s principally proper wing hipsters. Yeah then you’ve gotten the nietzschean former graduate scholar turned on-line essayist and influencer, Bronze Age pervert, who has acquired fascinating profiles in mainstream publications. So these can be examples that I’d see. However who do you see as your allies and fellow vacationers within the cultural challenge. Oh Yeah. No, that’s completely proper. I believe you’ve hit the first individuals, the first figures, and also you’re capturing what the zeitgeist is right here, for lack of a greater time period. And it’s nonetheless being developed. And I’d be mendacity to you if I stated that I had some intentional challenge right here or some intentional aesthetic that I used to be attempting to domesticate with this. So the concept is that the long run is found. O.Okay we’re not going to have the ability to predict forward of time what this new tradition will appear like. It’s throwing these components on the market primarily based on a type of shared understanding on the highest degree of abstraction, some type of alignment that, at the least for now, is outlined in opposition of each the left and wokeness, which is simple, nevertheless it’s additionally outlined in some sense in opposition to the conservativism that has come earlier than, not as a result of it’s antagonistic in direction of that type of conservatism per se, however that type of conservatism is restricted in what it may possibly produce creatively. And it is a lot of the frustration that folks have had with the correct is anytime anybody on the conservative aspect goes to make some type of artwork or do tradition. It’s simply dangerous. And the left is true about this. There’s been at the least for my lifetime, this critique that the correct can’t do artwork and why and why tradition. So why is that. What is true wing artwork lacking. That the correct wing counterculture is attempting to produce. What are the components It’s not. It’s not traditionally true, however at the least proper within the final 30, 40 years. So I believe partly it’s concern of the unknown. It’s an absence of tolerance for inventive license and the messiness and chaos of what’s entailed by the inventive course of. And it’s simply the case that if you will embark on a brand new cultural challenge, you need to have some quantity of style for offense. And O.Okay, I’ll say this. There’s in all probability three points to why conservative artwork is dangerous or has been dangerous. And that is reductive, after all, however this may assist body issues. It’s moralistic. It’s a lot too moralistic. It’s didactic. It’s all the time attempting to let you know a self-consciously conservative message. It’s overly sentimental. After which there’s additionally this nostalgia factor. It’s all the time wanting backwards and and conservative artwork is all the time trying to the previous as a result of it’s acquainted. It’s one thing that’s already been established. It’s one thing for which they already know what they’re presupposed to what’s good and what’s not good. So there’s no danger in attempting something new. After which the third factor I’ll say right here is that it’s grievance oriented. And this is available in two types. It’s both we’re proudly owning the libs or right here’s a narrative about all the methods the libs are making our lives insufferable. Nicely, let’s- I need to make this only a tiny bit extra concrete and say from any interval, not the final 20 years, any interval in American life, trendy Western historical past. Give me an instance of one thing you contemplate profitable proper wing artwork that doesn’t fall into the traps you’ve described. Positive, no nation for Previous Males for example, nevertheless it’s not self-consciously proper wing, proper. I doubt, the Coen brothers would name themselves on the correct. And I don’t even know if Cormac McCarthy, who wrote the ebook. It’s primarily based on. However to my thoughts, it’s exactly proper wing artwork, or David Lynch. Just about every thing David Lynch touches, I believe, has a sure type of a proper wing coating to it, actually. So give me so what’s the coding. What makes to a listener for whom it appears absurd to name no nation for Previous Males proper wing. What makes that proper wing to you. O.Okay as a result of I prefer it. It’s good. And due to this fact I would like it to share my political preferences. However past that, and that is the place there can be some factors of disagreement, by the way in which, it additionally calls one thing like ladies. The TV present ladies is a proper wing present. Nicely, that now you’re simply pandering to me as a result of that was my that was my constant view. Sure it is a pastime horse of mine Sure All proper. So then we would share the premise right here that what constitutes quote unquote proper wing artwork, which is, by the way in which, some labeling we’re grafting onto this factor after the very fact. And so it’s truly a really flimsy type of labeling. However what these items of labor are doing is telling the reality in regards to the world in a means that isn’t compromised by inventive or ideological preferences references about how these occasions and these characters and these individuals. Society needs have been true about these individuals. So my factor is that if you’re telling the reality in regards to the world, then you will make proper wing artwork. However isn’t that then a little bit round. You then’re saying all nice artwork is in some way proper wing. Wish to me, as an illustration, I really feel a TV present that I’ve loved is and Andor. It’s one of many few Star Wars reveals that I’ve loved. I see that as type of left wing artwork. It’s a present that makes use of the background of the empire and the Star Wars universe to inform a narrative about punishing militaristic tyranny and resistance to it in methods which can be of left coded. But additionally it’s a very good present. Whereas I’d take a look at ladies and say, look, it’s ultimately, it’s a scabrous satire of a specific type of higher center class life-style in a liberal metropolis. And so it’s coming from a proper wing perspective. I really feel like- So do you think- Can there be nice left wing artwork out of your perspective. I suppose Yeah. However I’ll say this I believe it relies upon. I perceive your level, that it’s extremely reductive to simply merely say, if I prefer it, due to this fact it’s proper wing artwork, or if it tells the reality, it tells the reality is what you’re saying. However O.Okay, so what I imply by that, although, is some extent of clarification is there are specific, at the least trendy left wing premises that help their worldview and their political agenda that I believe are belied by somebody telling the reality in regards to the world. And right here’s an instance of this. The left takes as a foundational precept of its politics the concept of equality, high quality that there’s a type of flattening individuals. And that by way of rigorously managed social engineering, we will produce a society that both ranges out any type of pure hierarchy or produce a system that in some way can wrangle these pure, nearly supernatural, entropic forces which can be consistently creating chaos and consistently requiring our upkeep and administration and authority to cope with. O.Okay, good. That’s what. In order that’s what I used to be on the lookout for. So this takes us into one of many phrases that I believe will get used to explain what the counterculture is as much as. And I do know you’re ambivalent about this phrase, nevertheless it’s the concept that will get known as vitalism. Which is that this time period which means, let’s say, a celebration of individuality, power, excellence and an anxiousness about equality and democracy. As simply the way in which you described as leveling forces enemies of human greatness, and it will get linked to Friedrich Nietzsche. I believe there’s an Ayn Rand who’s of a highly regarded novelist on the American. No matter you make of her precise books is in some sense on this faculty. However that, to me, looks like one widespread thread in together with within the books that you simply your self have printed. Like what hyperlinks the White Russian basic standing athwart the Bolsheviks to the Hardy boys, to Conan the barbarian? It’s some type of thought of human greatness beset by mediocrity and so forth. What do you concentrate on that. Yeah, I believe that’s proper. I wouldn’t contest that fundamental abstract. I don’t need to overdue. Like how we’re desirous about this phrase vitality. For the needs of this dialog, it’s sufficient to say it’s one thing a thymus, O.Okay, spiritedness, a self-will, a aliveness or additionally, I need to say that there’s a sure type of eroticism to vitality that’s essential and has usually been lacking from the conservative view of the world. And I believe that’s a mistake. I believe you’re leaving one thing essential on the desk by not grappling with this notion of eroticism and what which means and why it may be priceless, particularly. And right here’s the premise we’re ranging from, and I believe we share this view that we’re reaching this section, whether or not it’s cyclical or there’s of this long term linear path of civilizational exhaustion, decay, decadence. That’s a phrase I do know you’ve used quite a bit. And this all requires rebirth. And the method of rebirth just isn’t mild. It’s It may be violent and tough. So I’d say that vitality has serves these two fundamental capabilities proper now. And why it’s priceless for us to tackle board. One, it attracts younger individuals, younger individuals. I believe males specifically, girls too, although, are naturally interested in this notion of vitality. They see it, they comprehend it. And so they need to be round it. The proper has failed for a very long time to draw younger individuals. That is lastly altering over the previous couple of years. It’s additionally a means of overcoming, a type of defeatism of this concept that issues are previous the purpose of saving, that we will’t do you something that every one there’s left for us within the twenty first century is to on the one hand, merely handle taking part in out this finish of historical past interval. This sense of vitality, I believe, affords one thing else. It affords the human topic the chance to advance positively and affirmatively into the long run. In order that’s my protection of idealism, proper. And it’s an escape from. And now I’m going to maneuver to a second time period that you simply your self have used. Sure it’s an escape from what will get known as the longhouse. And also you talked about, women and men as every very important in sure methods. However the longhouse is a particularly female coded narrative of like, what’s unsuitable with modern life. So what’s the longhouse. O.Okay, so I wrote this essay known as what’s the longhouse for First Issues journal. So you’ll be able to reply the query. Sure, I’d encourage anyone who’s who desires to know the exact particulars to go learn that article as a result of I spell out what I imply by it. And right here I’m going to speak and possibly extra imprecise phrases, nevertheless it’s primarily an evidence, clarification and exploration of what I understand as a type of over feminization of society. And I don’t imply that because it’s explicitly girls who’re taking up society, as a result of usually the longhouse is managed by males, and in some circumstances, it’s higher managed by males or extra severely and strictly managed by males. However it’s a type of female means of social administration that’s distinct from a type of male or masculine coded social administration and group dynamics. There’s a sure it’s possibly a phrase is sort of a regime of maternal surveillance is a phrase I’ve used earlier than that preferences, for instance, inclusion, battle avoidance, consensus security. And these sorts of priorities supersede issues like reality discovering and competitors and the sorts of violent usually. And I don’t imply essentially bodily violent, however it may be that however a type of combativeness that higher characterizes a type of masculine mind-set about concepts. And once more, why this will get again to sure different issues we’ve talked about is the longhouse is actually flattening. It’s horizontal. Whereas masculine means of doing issues on this mannequin is hierarchical, it’s vertical. And what a extra combative model of discourse, for instance, does, is assist set up these hierarchies and the place the worth of concepts are relative to 1 one other. The longhouse doesn’t enable for that, as a result of it’s extra concerned with ensuring everyone’s emotions are maintained and no one’s offended. And simply so listeners are clear, it is a reference to I imply, there’s a type of I’m going to name it a pseudo anthropology, as a result of I don’t suppose you’re truly making particular claims in regards to the human previous, however there’s a distinction between of longhouse tradition of a literal longhouse of a tribe, crowded collectively underneath one roof with what. The liberty of the steppe barbarian. Yeah, I imply, so this comes from Bronze Age pervert. O.Okay Bronze Age mindset, which is likely one of the nice texts of the twenty first century. And I encourage all of the New York Instances’ listeners to learn it. It’s essential when you truly need to perceive these things. I agree. So he talks in regards to the longhouse and he’s bought his personal tackle it. I borrowed the time period. And really why I believe the time period is so priceless is as a result of it’s a type of empty signifier. I don’t imply to tie it to this historic context. It’s an evocative picture. It’s this huge, lengthy, O.Okay, literal home that we’re all caught within and also you’re constrained in how one can behave, how one can act. And I believe it’s hostile in direction of males specifically, having a type of freedom of meeting with each other. So concrete examples can be the campaign in opposition to Greek life at universities. You’ll see as longhouse in motion company HR departments and sensitivity trainings, longhouse in motion. Nicely, and you may see in all probability probably the most salient instance of this exactly as a result of it’s the place you’d least anticipate this sort of lengthy housed. Cultural framing to take root is the navy. And really, Pete hedges has talked about this explicitly. Is that this integration of ladies into the navy. We don’t must get into the politics of that. Simply suffice to say, although, that these historically male areas, our martial tradition has been now, it’s open to girls. And this introduces new norms. It simply has to to ensure that it to work. And that is going to essentially change, and I’d argue, degrade the tradition of masculinity that preceded it to 2 objections or responses. The second will probably be extra particular to my very own worldview, however the first one, I believe, is a extra basic one which many listeners would have. They might say, look what has truly occurred within the final 25 years within the longhouse period, as you describe it, is. Guess what. We eliminated restrictions on girls’s development they usually began out competing males. They’re not lengthy housing males. They’re simply getting the promotions that males used to get. And succeeding in company America the place males used to succeed. And Sure, there are particular circumstances just like the navy the place bodily variations between women and men matter. And possibly there you may say gender equality has gone too far as a result of it ignores these bodily variations. However once you’re speaking about company America or political America or any of those environments, girls are succeeding, males aren’t. And now males are complaining that girls are oppressing them. Like, isn’t this simply isn’t the longhouse only a lengthy male whine a couple of failure to adequately compete and also you’re pretending Oh, for the times of the steppe barbarians. However possibly you must suck it up and really compete on the grounds that we’ve got in twenty first century America. What do you say to that. Yeah I imply, it’s a wonderfully cheap query to ask. And I do suppose over the past nonetheless many a long time that there have been quite a lot of adjustments within the office that may be attributed to girls, very proficient girls taking over management roles and succeeding in these roles, and due to this fact introducing extra girls into the office primarily based on that success. I believe it’s completely effective for me to concede to that. The purpose I’m making is that by introducing this new distribution of personnel into public life, it has an impact on how these establishments are run and the norms that these establishments run on. After which it turns into an empirical query. Have they modified for the higher or have they modified for the more serious. And I believe most individuals go searching on the numerous establishments, whether or not it’s media, whether or not it’s academia, whether or not it’s the company boardrooms which have discovered themselves in all kinds of spasms over DEI stuff over the past decade. Are they extra environment friendly or are they much less environment friendly. Are they working correctly. My argument can be that very self-evidently, the establishments by which all of those adjustments have occurred are actually performing worse than they used to. And that’s, at the least partly, attributable to this alteration in norms. And this alteration in norms in flip, is attributable to this alteration in personnel. All proper. Now, a extra private objection rooted in my very own non secular commitments, which is that as you say, I’ve a number of sympathy for the broad view that trendy, late trendy life has turn into decadent and a few type of sense of chance, some type of sense of motion, some type of sense of human capability is basically essential to getting us both out of this trench or by way of no matter bizarre bottleneck digital life and I are going to create. I agree with all of that. Nevertheless, I’m additionally a Christian. And all the authors that I’ve talked about who’re a part of the vitalist custom, Nietzsche, Rand, Bronze Age, pervert, see themselves working in opposition to Christianity. They see Christianity as essentially it’s both it’s a faith of the weak. It’s a faith of ladies. Maybe it’s in opposition to the erotic. And so once I take a look at once I take a look at the correct wing counterculture proper now, I see a pressure that has there are people who find themselves actually into traditionalist Catholicism and whatnot there. However there’s additionally lots of people who I believe in their very own story about what went unsuitable with the correct, the Normie proper, the boring proper of Kevin McCarthy suppose at some degree, it was a bunch of weak, skinny, milk consuming Christians who didn’t perceive that what is definitely greatest in life is to crush your enemies, to see them pushed earlier than you, and to listen to the lamentations of their girls. So I’m curious, what’s your perspective in direction of these debates. What’s your perspective in direction of Christianity and faith. Yeah, I imply, my perception is that there’s precise super quantity of synchronicity between these two modes of working on the earth. And it’s not simply my perception my favourite writer and really a passage press comes from the ebook forest passage by Ernst jünger. And there’s an awesome ebook of letters between youthful and Martin Heidegger. And junger’s Youthful’s view, truly, is that none of this sort of vitalism, none of that is sustainable with out faith and really Christianity particularly, and that our thought of poetics and the inscrutable forces of the universe in opposition to that are particular person will is being examined always by which a type of vitalist view of the world is insisting we’re consistently pushing in opposition to all must be dwell within this framework of Christianity. So I don’t suppose this stuff are incompatible. However youthful however so youthful. If I’m remembering his trajectory appropriately. He was half he’s a part of the German. Appropriate He’s not a Nazi, however he serves within the Third Reich. He’s not somebody who listeners ought to consider as Heidegger, who simply goes who goes Nazi in that means. However he stays very a lot on the anti-liberal proper all through that interval. And my sense of him is that he did have {that a} view of Christianity, as you described to a point, nevertheless it was Christianity as a type of helpful pressure for resisting the degradation of modernity and so forth. After which he does truly turn into a Catholic in very previous age. So it’s such as you get to be a vitalist for a lot of a long time. After which on the finish, you’re like, all proper, all proper, time to succumb to full Christianity. And it simply appears to me that even in vitalism, there are people who find themselves anti-Christian like Bronze Age pervert just like the Nazis. After which there are individuals who need to put it to make use of. However I’m a little bit ambivalent about having my faith put to make use of in that means. Yeah I imply, your concern is that it’s merely being, cynically operationalized, not even not even cynically, nevertheless it’s extra like Christianity is that this nice mythic construction that inside which we will function. And so forth. And that’s not what I imagine about Christianity. So I believe Christianity is a real fantasy and imposes constraints. I assume that’s a part of it, proper. The Christian doesn’t simply suppose that nature imposes constraints. It’s that God imposes constraints as properly. However let’s not let’s not keep ceaselessly within the particularities of dogma. As a result of I need to discuss Donald Trump. Sure carry us, carry us from Ernst Jünger to Donald Trump, proper. And so Trump himself, proper. Once more, we’re attempting to speak extra about tradition than politics. Trump begins as a cultural determine. Anybody anybody who’s sufficiently old to recollect the Trump who existed earlier than he turned a politician remembers the tabloid fixture, the truth TV star, the self creator whose life is, in a bizarre means, its personal type of work of American well-liked artwork. However you’ve written a bunch about Trump as a heroic determine. You’ve explicitly in contrast him to Aeneas. Talking of mythological heroes, discuss to me about that Trump as hero. What does that imply. O.Okay I’ve a considerably idiosyncratic view of Donald Trump. Sure as a type of a person out of time. And so I wrote this text or essay known as Aeneas in Washington. And the concept was that Donald Trump has revived or assumed actually this sort of mythic stature. He’s a mythic hero. And particularly, I’ve this idea. It’s not my idea, however I’ve utilized it to Trump, of retrocausality. Trump has this unusual potential, in my opinion to reconstitute the previous. How we perceive Trump and his life earlier than he entered politics just isn’t a strict, linear factor that’s unchanging in time. Really, over the past 5 years specifically. So since he misplaced the 2020 election, this interim interval the place he was beset by these lawsuits and he was threatened with jail time and he was shot at and practically killed. We will look again at his previous and see a brand new narrative about his life that implies the potential of this sort of rebirth from this civilizational exhaustion that I believe is basically the core description of our current second. Now, on this essay, I additionally level out this idea known as charisma starvation. And there was a sociologist from the center twentieth century, Erik Erikson, fairly outstanding. And he had this concept that within the trendy world and this has quite a bit to do with truly, the lack of non secular conviction and non secular life that we have been in quest of these figures, these heroes. I’m very conscious of the chance that I’m succumbing to this charisma starvation that Erikson recognized a long time in the past. And nonetheless, I do suppose and I believe the individuals’s response to Trump, their impression of him. I noticed for the opposite day, did you see this wrestler who gained the NCAA title and he’s draped within the American flag, this gladiator, and he provides this nice huge hug to Donald Trump. And in so some ways, Trump is this sort of nice father of the American individuals, or sure phase of the American individuals who have embraced him. And he’s not only a politician. He’s not only a president. He’s not only a TV star. And to my thoughts, that speaks to this legendary character. Yeah I imply, look, my very own view of Trump, as you in all probability has modified. I believe we’ve got of every moved and every shifted, and I’ve ended up nearer to the place you have been 4 years in the past, and also you’ve gone a bit additional. So I simply had hassle from the start of seeing Trump as something aside from a symptom of decadence. The fact TV host turns into president of the USA as a result of he’s triumphing over all these mediocrities and failed politicians. And so forth. Nevertheless it’s solely and he’s representing a type of revolt in opposition to decadence, I agree, a need for one thing extra. However he manifests that decadence on the identical time. That was my fundamental take. After which in over the identical interval that you’ve got come to see him as a heroic determine, I’ve come to see him as. Yeah, somebody who has a extra providential place, a much bigger place in historical past, who continues to be a part of a decadent period, possibly continues to be extra of an anti-hero than a hero, however is greater than I assumed. And there’s a few of that. Retrocausality after getting Trump surviving the assassination try, you learn that again into the previous. Sure however I wouldn’t go so far as you do, I assume, for causes. I believe a part of the rationale possibly connects again to what we have been simply going forwards and backwards about my Christian doubts, about vitalism. To me, I take a look at Trump, and I see somebody who has extra capacities than I credited with him in the beginning, however the capacities that he lacks are restraint, magnanimity, a way of ethical limitation. And I believe that lack is linked to the truth that I don’t suppose he’s essentially non secular. I believe possibly he believes in Windfall now that Windfall saved him. However not in any type of conventionally Christian means. And I believe it’s the rationale why it’s each cheap for liberals to fret about the place that urge for food of aspect of him takes us, but additionally simply to fret about once more, the chaos and mismanagement and all of the issues that additionally are available from an absence of restraint. Yeah I imply, I believe that’s truthful. However and I’d additionally say for others who share your view right here on this battle between your non secular convictions and what Trump may symbolize, that is squarely inside our Civil non secular custom. I imply, if you concentrate on the way in which that for many of our historical past, actually up till just like the Obama years, we considered our founding figures and the way in which that they’re offered in artwork and the way in which they’re written about in our political and civil non secular texts. They’re fairly explicitly, divinely guided. I imply, the hand of God is like reaching down and shifting. Thomas Jefferson, who additionally was not non secular in any significant respect, and George Washington and John Adams, et cetera, and inserting them, the hand of destiny is on high of them. And so it’s not this stuff wish to think about that Trump is reviving that custom or is now occupying that very same function just isn’t in contradiction to this lengthy custom of civil faith that we’ve had beforehand. It’d require extra proof for you. You may must see, I believe the difficulty is extra that, when you see the hand of Windfall working by way of George Washington and John Adams within the founding of America, you may see the hand of Windfall working by way of Donald Trump within the chastisement of America, proper. That Trump, is a good man of historical past whose function is to chastise the liberal intelligentsia and the never-trumpers and all these teams that failed to manipulate America. Nevertheless it doesn’t imply that on the finish of the day, he’s truly saving America. Typically it’s only a chastisement. Like that. I really feel like that chance deserves extra consideration from individuals who have this sort of mystical response to the drama of the Trump period. However I needed to simply on that query of restraint a part of what Trump does, a part of his lack of restraint is a refusal to respect any taboos to push by way of regardless of the taboos of progressive tradition are. And in the identical means, proper a part of the correct wing counterculture is all about taboo busting. However a kind of taboos, and that is one thing that connects Trump in some methods to the counterculture is taboos round race, proper. As a result of there’s a number of racism in proper wing counterculture in numerous types. It’s there within the on-line memes. It’s there within the can be nietzscheans like bap. Anybody who goes from this dialog. And will get a replica of Bronze Age mindset and reads, sure paragraphs will say, properly, this man is a terrific racist, proper. Positive and I need to provide earlier than you interpret this, I need to provide three interpretations. Take the interviewer’s privilege. I believe you may say, O.Okay, that is nearly that is about performative insurrection. A counterculture must shatter taboos. The taboos of liberal tradition are round race and gender. Chance to you need to reclaim and relegitimize elements of the American previous. American previous had a number of racists. You’re attempting to revive and reconstitute a misplaced progressive world. It’s inherent within the challenge that you simply’re principally attempting to rehabilitate writers and thinkers who modern piety would attempt to rule out as a result of they held, on the very least, un-pc opinions. So these are two arguments that I see as justifications full or not, for the type of racist stuff. However then there’s additionally the chance that there’s only a severe perception in racial inequality. And possibly it’s probably not legitimizing Nazism, however when you spend a good period of time on-line, it’s not that many levels of separation from the correct wing counterculture to individuals on excom speaking about what an awesome artist Hitler was such an awesome, such an awesome artist, which I so anyway, I needed to supply these as interpretations. After which have you ever discuss why. Why is the correct wing counterculture racist. Positive properly, first, let me begin by saying I don’t suppose truly, Adolf Hitler was an awesome artist. I believe he was truly poor and technically poor in sure methods which can be very apparent once you take a look at his portray. However O.Okay, technically, the technical deficiencies of Adolf Hitler are undoubtedly, undoubtedly there in just a few locations in his life. Sure so that is truly it is a actually fascinating query. And naturally, it’s price addressing. And I believe all the stuff you stated can concurrently be true. And I believe there’s a fourth level I need to add right here, which is traditionally contextual. We began this dialog by attempting to suppose again to the place this present second of our cultural, social, mental, ideological path started and we recognized someplace within the 2010s. Now every thing I’m about to speak about has precursors. However one thing else occurs right here round 2012. And possibly you determine the Trevon Martin case into 2013, 2014. Definitely there’s the Michael Brown, arms up, don’t shoot Black Lives Matter concurrently, that we’ve got a type of a dialogue taking place on this nation round immigration. And what would occur to this nation. If we began permitting individuals in from everywhere in the world. Is everyone the identical from in all places. And if we’re going to have a pluralistic democracy, what does that appear like in a future the place it’s not a non-white, predominantly white nation. These are reliable issues to consider lots of people didn’t need us having these conversations beforehand. However then what occurs in 2013 14, after which scales up over the course of the 2010s. Is that this insistence and once more, I believe that is essential coming from the left, that we’ve got our second of racial reckoning. O.Okay, so a bunch of individuals then are being requested to have a tough dialog about race and the prevailing view, which is taken on by the New York Instances’ by academia, by and huge, is that any variations in outcomes amongst individuals will be ascribed to this infinitely amorphous, non-falsifiable, infinitely pervasive factor known as systemic racism. And that is, if not deliberately facto, the fault of the White inhabitants within the nation. So the query then is that true. Are we allowed to have a look at the precise causes of why these discrepancies exist. And it simply is the case that once you take a look at these variations, they don’t seem to be attributable to white racism. You possibly can truly determine causes. So I believe a number of younger individuals on-line who’re discovering themselves getting the brief finish of the stick on these, this new regime of DEI are reacting to it in. And so a number of this sort of racialized dialog is a response, is a solution to the insistence that every one of those variations are white individuals’s fault. So I purchase a model of that argument. And I believe it’s very clear simply from watching the tradition that the ascendance of sure sorts of DEI narratives Robin D’Angelo stuff, the place it’s like white persons are conducting psychological self-scrutiny and so forth to root out the hidden structural racism of their coronary heart. All of that contributes to an emergence far more than at any level in my lifetime of a type of distinct white racial identification amongst some conservatives. Youthful conservatives, particularly on-line conservatives, particularly individuals within the orbit of the correct wing counterculture, particularly. That is all, I assume, a number of totally different questions, although, proper. One that also may be dangerous, proper. If it’s dangerous to have a tribalist view of politics amongst non-whites, isn’t it doubtlessly dangerous to have a tribalist view amongst whites. Even when you’re making a cultural, political clarification the place it’s comprehensible. That’s query one. Query 2 is extra concrete. It’s like, O.Okay, how far again are you. Are you attempting to show the dial. And I need to preserve it in tradition. So I’m going to present a cultural instance. I grew up I used to be an enormous fan of the Tintin books. The Tintin comics, the boy detective captain haddock. And so forth. These have been an enormous affect in my childhood within the Nineteen Eighties, Nineties. The Tintin books are from 1920 by way of 1960. One of many early Tintin books known as Tintin within the Congo. And it’s tremendous racist. Like it’s a set of tremendous racist caricatures of Africans that aren’t like pleasant ethnic stereotypes. The way in which the looks of like, Arabs and Italians are elsewhere within the ebook. They’re extra racist than that. Nicely, I’ll simply be actually specific. Would you publish Tintin like Tintin within the Congo. Disappeared, proper. Was it good that it disappeared. I’m not acquainted with this actual ebook. O.Okay properly, in idea, think about you may. You possibly can choose one other. However like is it. Sure is it O.Okay that sure issues from the previous that have been very racist disappear. No so, so it is a very straightforward query for me to reply. And the reply is Sure. I’d publish it on the idea that it has a type of literary worth that’s unbiased from these objections you need to these racial caricatures. So there have you ever seen who Framed Roger Rabbit. The film Sure Yeah. The film. O.Okay Sure. There’s this nice second in who Framed Roger Rabbit, the place Roger is handcuffed to the detective. And that is inflicting all of them kinds of issues. And finally the detective is attempting to noticed {the handcuffs} off. And Roger at one level simply slips out of {the handcuffs} on this sight gag. It’s humorous. And the detective very angrily says to him, you’re telling me you may do this at any time. And Roger Rabbit says to him, no, solely when it’s humorous. And the upshot of this anecdote is that if it’s humorous, O.Okay, and humorous, right here now’s a stand in for has inventive worth unbiased of the factor taking place, then it’s price preserving and price taking part in. So this Tintin ebook, or Tintin I don’t is that Tintin is the snobby French means of claiming it. Most People would say Tintin Yeah Yeah, actual People. Which I’m a vulgar populist, Trump supporters. So I don’t understand how Trump supporters say Tintin. New York Instances’ columnists say Tintin. Yeah So the query, the working query for me as a writer is it humorous. And once more, does it have worth. Does it have inventive benefit. Then there’s additionally the archival factor. The archival operate is essential for a writer. These are essential texts. They inform us one thing not nearly who we have been, however in flip about who we’re and easily forgetting that this stuff existed. Does no one any good in any respect. I don’t suppose we have to shield individuals from that type of offense. The opposite level, which is isn’t aren’t these views dangerous, although. And so we should always disarm on these questions. If I perceive what you’re placing to me. And I’d say possibly type of it relies upon, as a result of these views do have penalties that we have to correctly tackle. And the one strategy to tackle them is by being trustworthy about causes. So if we’re speaking about, for instance, crime charges and we wish we see uneven incarceration charges. And our reply is, properly, there’s overpolicing. However then our resolution to that’s we do away with police. Nicely that creates a rise in crime. And no, so long as disarming on these questions and never being trustworthy about these questions permits for these sorts of social pathologies to rule over how we operate in life, I believe is dangerous, and we must be trustworthy about them. And this doesn’t. Yeah Yeah. However what. However nonetheless there. There’s a query past that in regards to the cultural aspect of this. Like, once more, the world of memes and discourse. And so forth. Sure it contains some rehabilitation of conventional conservative arguments about issues with the welfare state or the need of policing which can be acquainted from the Nineteen Eighties and Nineties, that the progressive consensus suppressed. That’s totally different to me from children on-line posting racist memes, proper. And saying, it’s simply irony. I’m simply being ironic. And busting taboos. O.Okay however at a sure level, doesn’t the masks turn into the face. Doesn’t the irony turn into indistinguishable from simply being in opposition to type of in opposition to Black individuals. After which for you, as a writer. It’s effective to say we should always protect these we should always have historic reminiscence. We must always know what the previous was like. However I don’t suppose you’d need to be such as you would have a sure viewers if passage press, pivoted additional. And was like, we’re publishing, we’re publishing Romel books by Alexander Stephens and confederates and so forth. Wouldn’t you are concerned about your self in that state of affairs, even when you thought it was effective don’t need this stuff banned, however do you need to be the particular person publishing all of that. No, not essentially. I believe there are publishers who’re already like filling that area of interest. So it’s not my accountability to try this. But additionally when you’re the type of one who’s concerned with that content material, it’s been there and you may go discover it and I’m glad you’ll be able to. I believe truly this stuff are essential for us to have the ability to focus on. And I’d say this to your concern about these racial taboos specifically. I truly don’t deal with them any totally different than some other type of political or social taboo. There’s some added, possibly vitriol or sharpness to a few of these memes we’re seeing now, however that’s principally as a result of it is a matter of dialog, a class of dialog that has been totally verboten for some time now. O.Okay, let’s name it at the least a number of a long time. And the issue with this specific matter, in my opinion, is that it begins with the supposition that it’s firstly an ethical query, and any respectable particular person, morally respectable particular person already agrees with these fundamental anti-racist premises. So to even elevate the questions, it’s a mark in opposition to your character, and we will’t even get to the purpose the place we’re having the coverage debate. And what that creates, then, is that this surroundings by which individuals who need to have this debate have to determine a strategy to discuss it and get by way of these filters. And I believe the type of abrasive meme making that you simply’re figuring out on the subject of racial questions is a operate of the style by which this a part of the discursive panorama has been beforehand closed off. And if we open it again up and permit for sober dialog, then it’ll lose the facility to hold these memes, they simply gained’t be as fascinating or humorous as a result of they’re not as taboo. I assume I’m extra skeptical of that. Not within the sense that I believe that when you enable or encourage sure debates that immediately the US turns into the antebellum South or Nazi Germany, however simply that there are lots of people and this there’s variations of this on the left and points round anti-Semitism, particularly on the left which can be of a separate dialog. However there’s some overlap. I believe it’s dangerous for individuals to be able the place they’re questioning not what’s the correct design of welfare coverage and policing. However do we have to do. We have to give some reconsideration to Hitler’s views about Jewish conspiracies? And I’m not saying I’m not. I’m not accusing you of taking that place. I’m simply saying proper now, once I take a look at these areas, it’s like I’m a baby of the Nineties, proper. I believe it was O.Okay to dwell in a world the place there have been taboos about Nazi Germany and the Jim Crow South, and that didn’t should preclude having trustworthy debates about race and crime and policing and all of this stuff. However I simply once I take a look at, once more, the ethical character that’s inspired by racist meme tradition, not frightened they’re going to take over. I’m simply frightened about them, I assume. O.Okay, however Yeah, I’d simply ask, what precisely are you frightened about. So let me begin with this. Initially, lies are brittle. In the end they disintegrate. Reality is sturdy, O.Okay. And to construct something that’s lasting, it has to relaxation on high of reality. And so we’ve got to start out there. That’s my view O.Okay. And with the intention to uncover reality, we must be keen to check our assumptions about every thing and constantly take a look at these assumptions. And if we don’t constantly take a look at these assumptions, we not simply neglect what we imagine, we neglect why we imagine these issues. And I believe that is truly one thing the left has fallen in. The entice of the left has type of forgotten easy methods to make the argument for their very own beliefs, as a result of they’ve denied anyone who objects to their underlying assumptions in regards to the world. I believe it could be a mistake for us to erect a type of discursive pressure area round sure classes of questions in an effort to preclude the type of discomfort. And once more, this concern that you simply’re articulating to me could be very imprecise. I don’t truly know what you’re frightened about. I imply, individuals have been questioning these narratives for a very long time. David Irving has been difficult the Holocaust for a very long time is prefer it higher to not have these conversations. I don’t suppose it’s. I believe we should always simply let it out. It could possibly exist on the earth. Yeah and once more, that is the very last thing I’ll say. However I believe it’s partially such as you began out speaking about how your sense I believe you’d put it this manner that there was anti-white racism at work in progressive politics and tradition within the final 5 or 10 years that right that there was a critique of whiteness as this miasmic pressure that was functionally like functionally utilized, a type of suspicion and hostility in direction of anybody who was white, actually anybody who was white and male. And I wouldn’t go so far as you with that, however I don’t suppose that’s unsuitable. I believe it was dangerous. It might even be dangerous for there to be increasingly more anti-black racism, or anti-Semitic curiosity on the correct, simply because it impacts our shared life. And I believe in ways in which have cultural results, have political results. I believe they affect the Trump administration. I believe one of many ways in which the Trump administration might fail, as I stated earlier than, is that it isn’t a racial problem per se, nevertheless it regards a few of its fellow residents with a sure type of contempt. That’s an issue for a can be nice chief. I believe contempt is dangerous. I believe racism encourages a type of contempt. And so, yeah, I don’t have a single like America goes to turn into Nazi concern. However I do have a concern in regards to the influence of taboo busting round race on the type of establishments that proper wing individuals may construct and so forth. So, I imply, I perceive the place the considerations are coming from. I assume I believe it’s unfounded. I don’t suppose it truly will materialize into one thing actual and one thing we’ll have to fret about. And I believe truly the choice presents a a lot worse chance. And I believe we noticed a few of that with the nice awokening or this post-george Floyd 2020 impulse to not simply blame white individuals for this sort of subordinate place of individuals of coloration per se, however then make precise coverage selections or institutional selections to attempt to degree that by harming white individuals. And so what I’d say right here is the rationale that was dangerous was not as a result of it pointed to racial discrepancies, however as a result of it was unsuitable, it didn’t cross the take a look at of proof. However the query is not only is the discrepancy exists, the query is, why. And if we don’t enable ourselves to have an trustworthy dialog about that, what fills the vacuum is probably the most incendiary and most dangerous explanations. So it’s truly in my opinion, incumbent on individuals in positions of prominence who can take a look at these questions soberly, who can consider the proof and make Frank statements in regards to the explanations for these disparities. All proper. Let’s simply discuss briefly in regards to the future. How lasting do you suppose that the vibe shift or no matter else is will grow to be. So that you’re in the beginning. I launched you proper because the host of an inaugural ball. You’re showing on a New York Instances’ podcast. A really outstanding place. However passage press is a boutique writer. And there’s. We didn’t actually get into this, however there’s a mass, clearly, a extra mass market aspect of the vibe shift. I believe the Joe Rogan’s and Theo Vaughn’s the and all the way in which to Andrew Tate. Vitalist proper. All of that, all of that’s there. And a part of the tradition. However even that also, to me, exists in a reasonably separate universe from the individuals who make pop musical TV or who publish mass market fiction. So I’m curious, do you see that a part of the tradition shifting rightward? Books, films, TV. What would that appear like. Yeah, I do. I truly suppose it’s going to be a full scale vibe shift and I full scale Reagan period degree or larger. Yeah, I do suppose it very properly could possibly be Reagan period degree. Now, I wasn’t quite a bit. I used to be alive, however I used to be too younger to recollect. What have been Reagan period. You have been absorbing his charisma. However I’ve watched sufficient John Hughes films to grasp how that expresses itself in well-liked tradition. And I believe we’re going to have exactly the identical type of vibe shift that infiltrates these mainstream media types. O.Okay, right here’s an instance. I sit round with my household each now and again, and we watch American Idol. And Carrie Underwood, who sang at The inauguration, is now one of many judges on American Idol. Simply the mere undeniable fact that this large pop star, who has one of many largest platforms in pop music, is concurrently affiliating herself with the Trump administration is sufficient to recommend that there’s something significant and enduring and broad about this vibe shift. You even have, I imagine it’s Larry Ellison’s son who simply purchased Paramount Footage. He’s a type of conservative, they’re going to be doing these High Gun esque movies that actually embrace a type of patriotic zeal, I assume you may say. Now, I warned firstly that it could be a mistake for conservatives to easily undertake a type of nostalgia and mawkish patriotism. So I don’t hope that’s all there’s. However that’s an ideal place for that type of ethos and aesthetic to exist in these huge blockbuster films, and I think they are going to. Individuals are actually exhausted by wokeness. So it’s not simply that the correct and this proper coded artwork is ascendant. It’s as a lot to do with the truth that Snow White, this new Snow White launch could be very unpopular. Individuals don’t need these things anymore. And so there’s going to be a pure opening for newer, let’s simply say vitalist type of artwork. All proper. So final query. Donald Trump calls you up and he says you’re in control of the Nationwide Endowment for the Arts, and also you’re establishing a program to have fun America’s 250th. And a part of that program is you’re going to ask each highschool senior to public highschool senior, possibly use the leverage remaining within the half dismantled division of training to implement this, to learn one ebook and see one film. Yeah what do you suggest. That is good. You place this query. I’m not going to cover the ball from the viewers. You place this query to me earlier this morning. I needed. I needed a very good reply, proper. Nicely once you ask it, immediately you’re like oh, God, are you going to say the godfather? As a result of it’s. O.Okay, good. See there you go. That’s all the time. I’m not going to say the godfather, though I did have issue spontaneously arising with a very good reply. What? one ebook encapsulates what I’m attempting to perform with this. So the factor I’m the factor I’ve thought lengthy and exhausting about and what I noticed once I was a lecturer at UCI. There’s been this sort of severing of a continuity between the previous and the current, and I believe it’s an intentional severing. And these children like, they simply they’re not well-read. They don’t actually know something. I imply, I spent half of my courses simply educating like Wikipedia tier historical past, simply so we will have sufficient context to have the dialog in regards to the precise stuff we’re speaking about. So one factor that I’d undoubtedly, I believe is way wanted is to reestablish a type of continuity, a literary mental, cultural continuity with the previous. So the ebook I’d select for that is Moby Dick, and it’s a really apparent cliché alternative, nevertheless it’s a factor that type of everyone from all ages when you’re an American, it is a ebook you simply ought to know. I believe Moby Dick is actually American, and specifically represents a type of East Coast American founding. And it’s this man in opposition to nature and God. And there’s additionally the chaos of the plurality of the solid. And it’s very American in that means. It’s this industrious, pluralistic nearly democracy on the boat. So it’s additionally transcendence by way of conquest, which is a really American thought. After which my counterpoint to that, which I believe is a pleasant coda isn’t any nation for Previous Males can be the film. Moby Dick is conquest and it’s the Atlantic. And now Cormac McCarthy and no nation for Previous Males. The movie specifically, the Coen brothers movie, is the border, the terminus of the West, the border with Mexico, it’s additionally late epic. It’s the exhaustion of American conquest. And we’re additionally now there’s this pressure on the heart of the ebook, this inscrutable, mysterious, supernatural pressure. It’s not in Moby Dick. It’s the factor they’re chasing. It’s the whale in a no nation for Previous Males. It’s evil. It’s chasing them that has come proper to now. Destiny is coming to actual. It’s payback for what America has turn into. So it’s America on the finish, at this second of civilizational exhaustion. And it’s exactly this level that we have to escape out of. And that is my hope for the long run is how can we take the metaphysics of No Nation for Previous Males and create some type of rebirth to our nationwide identification, our nationwide character, our interior primordial being, and discover that life pressure that may as soon as once more lengthen past these borders. All proper. On that chthonic be aware, Jonathan Keeperman, Thanks a lot for becoming a member of me. Thanks, Ross. This was nice.
